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Why Orlando received a "0"?
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UkrainianGymnasticsFan



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 148
Location: Now in Australia

PostPosted: Sun, 29-Jul-2007 1:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone has Bessonovas ribbon?
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Little Question



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 316
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun, 29-Jul-2007 4:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

UkrainianGymnasticsFan wrote:
Anyone has Bessonovas ribbon?


On Youtube:
Bessonova broken ribbon stick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voLtiKy7otU

Other topics on the forum talking about broken apparatus:

http://www.rsg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2254&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bessonova+broken+ribbon

and

http://www.rsg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1666&highlight=unfortunate+moments+rg+routines
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staz13



Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 317
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue, 31-Jul-2007 5:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't understand this. When I heard the news I assumed that the swivel broke at the very beginning with her illusion throw. IMO she should have gotten points for the beginning of the routine..it was truly flawless and her pirouettes have improved ( if thats possible!) The zero was harsh and the red flag that marisa speaks about should have been raised, does anyone know if this is used in international competitions? I actually cried when I heard. I think this is going to be a lesson to everyone...but also a true display of strength. If i were her i would've been crying and off of that carpet as soon as possible. She did look worried but wow was she strong.
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Gabs



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 5:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

The code is clear about this... if the apparatus breaks you stop the routine or receive zero, Bessonova knew this. I think its awful and unfair that Orlando's ribbon broke, such bad timing and so unfortunate, but I don't think it's unfair that she received a zero. Those are the rules. Of course I feel horrible for her, but in the future she will know to stop the routine and not to continue on, as possibly she should have known in the first place. I don't think it's the responsibility of the judges to stop her, either. I hope other international gymnasts will learn from this, and have spare equipment ready or know to stop if they don't, and we don't have this sad situation happen again in the future!
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staz13



Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 7:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, I am not the familiar with the rules. It is still very unfortunate though Sad
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Anna Kull



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 9:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gabs wrote:
The code is clear about this... if the apparatus breaks you stop the routine or receive zero, Bessonova knew this. I think its awful and unfair that Orlando's ribbon broke, such bad timing and so unfortunate, but I don't think it's unfair that she received a zero. Those are the rules. Of course I feel horrible for her, but in the future she will know to stop the routine and not to continue on, as possibly she should have known in the first place. I don't think it's the responsibility of the judges to stop her, either. I hope other international gymnasts will learn from this, and have spare equipment ready or know to stop if they don't, and we don't have this sad situation happen again in the future!


I agree. We should not mix hard for the gymnast with unfair. As long as the rules are applicated to all competitiors in the same way Rolling Eyes a competition is fair but it my be hard for a particular gymnasts due to such rules as the one we are disussing about.
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aldami5



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 9:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarisaO wrote:
Here in Canada, our head judge will put up a red flag for the gymnast to stop.
Does this not apply internationally?
Also, I have to wonder if this had been anyone other than Alexandra would this have happened? We Canadians again are too nice.


Is this in the COP Question

JR wrote:
mmm...If not mistaken in Wch Budapest 2003, in AA groups,,, Greece broken one hoop 10 seconds before finish the routine and the penalty was minimum... nodoby remeber this? Or was a dream? Embarassed


I commented this topic to my friend who is judge and coach...
Idea Does anybody mention the time each exercises had when the stick broke ?
Bessonova, the stick brokes :1,03 time after she started her routine
Little Question wrote:

Bessonova broken ribbon stick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voLtiKy7otU


Orlando, the stick brokes : 0,45 time after she started her routine
katekloos wrote:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y9r8fnoGHbQ


Could this detail have an influence in the judges decision when to give or not pontuation to the gymnasts?

Any comments, please?
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Sery



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 15:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

if my memory is correct, Bessonova also should have gotten 0, no?

because the COP, again if my memory correct,
tells that if a gymnast breaks an apparatus, then - 0.
if she (or he Cool ) has a 2nd apparatus by the carpet, she (or he) can
take it and go on excercise, but reaceives a penalty for using a second
apparatus.
and it's not forbidden to continue exercise with a broken apparatus.

so it's so unlucky that Orlando didn't have a 2nd ribbon... Rolling Eyes
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Little Question



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed, 1-Aug-2007 20:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sery wrote:
if my memory is correct, Bessonova also should have gotten 0, no?

because the COP, again if my memory correct,
tells that if a gymnast breaks an apparatus, then - 0.
if she (or he Cool ) has a 2nd apparatus by the carpet, she (or he) can
take it and go on excercise, but reaceives a penalty for using a second
apparatus.
and it's not forbidden to continue exercise with a broken apparatus.

so it's so unlucky that Orlando didn't have a 2nd ribbon... Rolling Eyes


I am not agree that it is not forbidden to continue the exercise with a broken apparatus as the rule says:
Concerning the rule
”5.4.1. If the apparatus breaks during an exercise or gets caught in the small beams of the ceiling, the gymnast or the group will not be authorized to start the exercise over.”

“5.4.3. In such a case, the gymnast or the group may:
• either stop the exercise
• or continue the exercise with a replacement apparatus.

Note: No gymnast or group is not allowed to continue an exercise with a broken apparatus. If the exercise is continued, it will not be evaluated (0.00 pt).”

----------------------------
and Bessonova got her score: 17.550 ( http://www.ffgym.asso.fr/res_gr/03_corbeil_sommaire.html# )

and yes, it was unluckely that Alex didn't bring a replacement apparatus.
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Sery



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 497

PostPosted: Thu, 2-Aug-2007 0:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Question wrote:
Sery wrote:
if my memory is correct, Bessonova also should have gotten 0, no?

because the COP, again if my memory correct,
tells that if a gymnast breaks an apparatus, then - 0.
if she (or he Cool ) has a 2nd apparatus by the carpet, she (or he) can
take it and go on excercise, but reaceives a penalty for using a second
apparatus.
and it's not forbidden to continue exercise with a broken apparatus.

so it's so unlucky that Orlando didn't have a 2nd ribbon... Rolling Eyes


I am not agree that it is not forbidden to continue the exercise with a broken apparatus as the rule says:
Concerning the rule
”5.4.1. If the apparatus breaks during an exercise or gets caught in the small beams of the ceiling, the gymnast or the group will not be authorized to start the exercise over.”

“5.4.3. In such a case, the gymnast or the group may:
• either stop the exercise
• or continue the exercise with a replacement apparatus.

Note: No gymnast or group is not allowed to continue an exercise with a broken apparatus. If the exercise is continued, it will not be evaluated (0.00 pt).”

----------------------------
and Bessonova got her score: 17.550 ( http://www.ffgym.asso.fr/res_gr/03_corbeil_sommaire.html# )

and yes, it was unluckely that Alex didn't bring a replacement apparatus.


ooops, but more in the COP:
Note if the gymnast or the group stops the exercise, the exercise will not be evaluated. Cool

so in both cases - 0.

btw, this rule has appeared in 2005 Exclamation
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Little Question



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 2-Aug-2007 2:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sery wrote: "btw, this rule has appeared in 2005"

What was the old one? Someone explained somewhere that the score could be depended of the time in which the break appeared. Maybe that explained why Bessonova got her score but I doubt it.

The second point I would like to discuss is about the expression of the sentence:
5.4.1. If the apparatus breaks during an exercise or gets caught in the small beams of the ceiling, the gymnast or the group will not be authorized to start the exercise over.”
Who exactly get the authority to stop it? The gymnast or the judge? it is not clear at all if it belongs to the gymnast when you consider the general rule forbidding to the gymnast to stop exercise by herself.
I think that, as many law's principes, the particular rule comes over the general one when 2 opposite rules are confronted. The coordinator judge has the duty to authorize or stop an exercise. But in this matter, to who the duty gets over the duty of the other one? What is your opinion about it?
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Tahnee
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PostPosted: Thu, 2-Aug-2007 3:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just watched the video...she was so brave to continue, but her face at the end.....no words... Crying or Very sad
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Gabs



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Fri, 3-Aug-2007 7:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Question wrote:

The second point I would like to discuss is about the expression of the sentence:
5.4.1. If the apparatus breaks during an exercise or gets caught in the small beams of the ceiling, the gymnast or the group will not be authorized to start the exercise over.”
Who exactly get the authority to stop it? The gymnast or the judge? it is not clear at all if it belongs to the gymnast when you consider the general rule forbidding to the gymnast to stop exercise by herself.
I think that, as many law's principles, the particular rule comes over the general one when 2 opposite rules are confronted. The coordinator judge has the duty to authorize or stop an exercise. But in this matter, to who the duty gets over the duty of the other one? What is your opinion about it?


What is the general rule forbidding the gymnast from stopping the exercise?
I think it is the gymnast's responsibility to stop - the prospect of a zero should be enough incentive for the gymnast to stop the exercise of her own free will should her apparatus break.

"5.4.1. If the apparatus breaks during an exercise or gets caught in the small beams of the ceiling, the gymnast or the group will not be authorized to start the exercise over.” This sentence is perfectly clear to me and has nothing to do with stopping the exercise but instead the fact that the gymnast/group will not be allowed to repeat the exercise again. That's my interpretation, anyway.
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Sak



Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat, 11-Aug-2007 9:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Gabs.
IMO "To be not authorized" means that the gymnast and the group have to know all the Cop and therefore have to konw that it isn't possible to start the exercise over although they asked it to the judge.
I think that the problem of Alexandra is that she continued the exercise with broken apparatus, so she get 0. The score colud be different if she stopped and go out of the carpet
But...
The cop in the 5.4.1 point continues with

"Penalties:
• If the gymnast or the group stops the exercise, the exercise will not be evaluated.
• If the gymnast or the group resumes the exercise with a replacement apparatus, the
penalties will be the same as for loss of the apparatus and use of a replacement
apparatus (see Paragraphs 5.2.2. and 5.2.3. above)."

and I would like to know what do you think about it... Isn't natural for a gymanst to stop the exercise if she noticed that she has for examples deflated ball or broked club? The time to realize the event... Embarassed
If Alexandra had the replacement apparatus she probabily stopped for a moment.
Thus, both with replacement apparatus and without replacement apparatus the gymnast or the group that stops the exercise get 0.
In short if Alexandra stopped the exercise she get 0 equally?

(N.B.: Sorry for my mistakes... My english isn't very well, I hope to do best in the future... Embarassed )
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ptitecιcile



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Wed, 29-Aug-2007 19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I have a question : why some gymnasts (like bessonova and orlando here) don't have a replacement apparatus?? The COP authorize this and I think it's really strange to don't put a replacement apparatus near the carpet, it is careless especially in the AA... I don't understand,someone have an explanation?
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