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Bessonova's clubs analysis 2008- Beijiing
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FaerieDevilish



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1084
Location: Mexico City, Mexico

PostPosted: Sun, 21-Sep-2008 18:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, Ivan --

He does not get paid to overscore anyone, nor does he belong to a scene in which he needs to get a gymnast in a final, you know.
Also, he does not need to disguise the disgrace of overscoring by overscoring everyone else in the final, nor does he need to give scores high enough to disguise the inefficiency of a code that in essence leaves 18.000+ for ideal routines.

I am sure you are aware of the weight of the reasons above in official FIG judging, yes?
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Hooby



Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Sun, 21-Sep-2008 19:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janita wrote:
hooby,

in here "L" = leap, F = flexibility, B = balance, P = pivot at least this i pressume.

the jete stands for the "turn" she is making just before the jump. Normally we say "jete en tournant"

i hope it helps
Of course it helped. Thanks a lot! Bounce And if you or anyone else can reply me, what does CAP stand for? Something related to apparatus handling, correct?
According to the execution, what is 1D, 2D, 5D, 15D? I tried to figure it out...D is referring to difficulty and the numbers are referring to movements like 15 is referring to the ring without help...am I correct? Embarassed Question

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CoCoNuTsiopatHic



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 821

PostPosted: Sun, 21-Sep-2008 20:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooby wrote:
Of course it helped. Thanks a lot! Bounce And if you or anyone else can reply me, what does CAP stand for? Something related to apparatus handling, correct?


It stands for "Caracteristiques Artistiques Particulieres", which is French for "Special Artistic Characteristics". It's just the name for the apparatus elements, the throws and catches, and any value for originality.

Quote:
According to the execution, what is 1D, 2D, 5D, 15D? I tried to figure it out...D is referring to difficulty and the numbers are referring to movements like 15 is referring to the ring without help...am I correct? Embarassed Question


I think what you mean is when people identify difficulties by something like "7F", "2B", "16C", and so forth. The number refers to what line the difficulty is on in its body movement difficulty group section (left side), and the letter refers to what the value of the difficulty is (top side).

For example, you want to find leap 37D. Go down to number 37 on the right side of the page in the leaps section. The line is for Straddle Leaps. Go over to 'D', and you'll see that this difficulty is a Straddle Jump with a take-off from both feet.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to your PMs yet, Hooby, but I will! Very Happy
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Sak



Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue, 23-Sep-2008 9:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooby wrote:
Quote:
1. L – Stag jeté w/ arch = 0.6
According to what CoCoNuTsIoPaThIc, can someone tell me what "L" is and what Jete` in general is? They say that it is a leap in ballet but I can't figure out how it looks like. I watched Zhenya's clubs routine and I saw the stage leap but where's the jete`? Does it differ even from a leap:watch:



In ballet a Jetè is nothing but a leap after a serie of step (it starts from a feet and finishes on the other) with sufficent elevation and streched legs but it doesn't metter the amplitude... The legs seem to be throw.

Gran Jetè is our Jetè.

I think that stag jetè is a "gran jetè en attitude en avanti": the front leg is in attitude...

Sorry for my english... Embarassed
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Crazy_fan



Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Tue, 23-Sep-2008 17:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonathan wrote:
ivan wrote:
Whom to trust - to you or to the certified by FIG ones ?
Cheers Smile)))


The ones drinking vodka like water!


Isn't this great, now we are going to go into stereotypes about who drinks vodka like water. These are middle-aged ladies who would pass out after the first glass, my friend. Very Happy

But you know, if I could be an amazing gymnast like Kanaeva, I would buy vodka for the entire International Federation. Razz
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dalit



Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri, 26-Sep-2008 1:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Crazy_fan"

True, it has been 5 years. I am kind of ready for this period to be over. I like watching Anna Bessonova perform but all the whining and screaming when she doesn't win is just too much.[/quote] As long as she cootinue to compete i don't mind to have those "whining and screaming" ....
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Leonela



Joined: 02 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat, 27-Sep-2008 4:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say that I am not an expert on scores, I am just a fan who likes to watch this beautiful sport. But in my opinion from what I have seen prior to Beijing Anna's club routine was scored wrong. And not just her but others were scored wrong as well Almudena, Nata, Inna the list goes on.

Also I don't think we are discussing the main problem. Why are judges like Deriugina(whom will be back in a few years) Viner and Lashchinskaya allowed to be on the judging panel? Deriugina is on her second suspension, Viner has made awful comments about other gymnasts so how can we expect her to score fairly, and Lashchinskaya whom was suspended in the biggest rg scandal and is allowed to judge in an Olympic game.

Please someone answer my question because I don't get it? It doesn't matter if you like Bessonova or Kapranova or if your pro Ukraine or pro Russia I think we can all agree that the judges I mentioned should never be allowed to work as a judge again.
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Leonela



Joined: 02 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat, 27-Sep-2008 7:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also wanted to add that in my opinion( again I am not an expert on scoring) Bessonova's AA clubs was better than her qualifying. So why a lower score? It honestly makes me believe the judges were trying to keep her down. And it kind of makes sense to me because Kapranova had her bad clubs routine almost right before Anna performed her clubs. It appears to me the judges wanted to keep Olga's hope alive for a medal. I feel like without Olga failing in her clubs Anna would have gotten a higher score. And then there was the image of Viner discussing Anna's AA ribbon score. Really when you add up everything the qualifying and AA it just really looked like the judges had it in for Anna. And I hate to say that because I don't want to make her a victim, she did have a bad Olympics and did not deserve gold or silver, but that's the impression I got. I have in the past been critical of Anna's coach Deriugina and how she has also been corrupt for her benefit, so I don't want it to seem like I am just defending my favorite gymnast.
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Crazy_fan



Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Sun, 28-Sep-2008 1:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonela wrote:
First let me say that I am not an expert on scores, I am just a fan who likes to watch this beautiful sport. But in my opinion from what I have seen prior to Beijing Anna's club routine was scored wrong. And not just her but others were scored wrong as well Almudena, Nata, Inna the list goes on.

Also I don't think we are discussing the main problem. Why are judges like Deriugina(whom will be back in a few years) Viner and Lashchinskaya allowed to be on the judging panel? Deriugina is on her second suspension, Viner has made awful comments about other gymnasts so how can we expect her to score fairly, and Lashchinskaya whom was suspended in the biggest rg scandal and is allowed to judge in an Olympic game.

Please someone answer my question because I don't get it? It doesn't matter if you like Bessonova or Kapranova or if your pro Ukraine or pro Russia I think we can all agree that the judges I mentioned should never be allowed to work as a judge again.


Why are the same judges used over and over again in other sports, too, like artistic gymnastics and figure skating? Anyone have a wild guess.
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CoCoNuTsiopatHic



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 821

PostPosted: Sun, 28-Sep-2008 16:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the current President of the Women's Artistic Technical Committee, Nelli Kim, was once actually sanctioned for corrupt judging. And now she's the President! Shocked
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gymnast stefie



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon, 13-Oct-2008 23:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a question that i have had for a long time...since perhaps 2000 olympics......
How do all the Olympic Gymnasts get their balances counted when they do not very often hold them long enough to get counted??
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CoCoNuTsiopatHic



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 821

PostPosted: Tue, 14-Oct-2008 19:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

gymnast stefie wrote:
here is a question that i have had for a long time...since perhaps 2000 olympics......
How do all the Olympic Gymnasts get their balances counted when they do not very often hold them long enough to get counted??


How long do you think they're supposed to hold them? It's not still rings. Laughing

If the gymnast is able to complete the two technical movements in the fixed position of the balance then it was held long enough.
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CoCoNuTsiopatHic



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue, 14-Oct-2008 20:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to the comments on my analysis...

sofia wrote:


first of all element 16 balance ....you don't have to do it on the releve,the first split......


Yes, you do! The ronde balances are classified in the Code of Points by beginning in a Front Split position. That shape must be shown on the toe. If it could begin on a flat foot then it would be classified as a flexibility as mixed difficulties are characterized by the first phase.

Invisible Hedgehog wrote:
I managed to find the video so here are my comments.

5. F – Back scale w/ 180 deg. turn = 0.6 (No value—Arch of trunk not properly shown)

here I disagree. which arch of trunk do you need? to bend over her supporting leg? it is EXACTLY what is written in the Code of Points - back scale of the trunk (is it written HOW MUCH she should bend???) and rotation on 180 degrees. That is right what she does.


The CoP says "back bend of the trunk" and the only way she gets her trunk below horizontal is by bending the trunk sideways, and before the rotation is fully complete her trunk is already starting to rise just a little bit. On second inspection, perhaps I was too strict here and should've credited it, but the difficulty definitely calls for a deduction for "incorrectly held body segment" for the way she turns that trunk sideways to show the shape.

Quote:
8. B – Attitude = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)

hmm she fixes it quite well in fact


That position never came to a complete stop. As soon as she hit the shape her leg dropped right back down and she pulled it back up again. I don't think that's acceptable.

Quote:
13. P – Attitude 1080 w/ shape change to Passé 1080 = 1.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)

OMG, IF HER LEG did bend BELOW the horizontal line during the biggest part of the pivot - then of course it cannot be counted, but here she does really well 3+3 = 1.2. I think for a Russian judge it will not cause a problem
There were A LOT of discussions on her attitudes during around 2002-2004 when really her hip went low often though she still had many rotations but here I strongly disagree. Sesina had the same question earlier as well but she also improved.


I don't know. I try to follow exactly what the Code of Points says, and based on the definition it gives for the term "well-fixed" and the stipulation that a pivot MUST be well-fixed and well-definined to receive credit, if there is any mobility in the shape of the pivot, then the Code of Points instructs you to discredit it. Perhaps the Code of Points is unrealistic is stipulating this, but I try to follow the CoP with unwaivering exactness. If the FIG TC doesn't want judges to be this strict then they need to change the Code of Points. They could say that "position not well-fixed" doesn't discredit a difficulty but just lowers its value by 0.1 in addition to the execution penalty. But until they do that I feel compelled to follow what the CoP currently says.

Quote:
15. P – Attitude 1080 = 0.6

I would really say that it is 0.80.
Pro Russian judge 0.60


I am counting from the point where she fixes the attitude position. She does not complete four rotations in that fixed shape.

Quote:
16. B – Front split w/ help w/ circle to back split w/ help = 0.6 (No value—First phase not executed on releve)

I disagree here as well because she raises on releve and it is not a problem


This is the one difficulty that I am most confident should never be credited the way she does it. I don't know why she hasn't just been doing the Front split w/ help w/ 1/2 turn of trunk balance in place of it where she doesn't have a problem starting the balance on releve. It's only 0.1 lower in DV and she actually deserves the credit.
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gymnast stefie



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu, 16-Oct-2008 8:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

CoCoNuTsiopatHic wrote:
gymnast stefie wrote:
here is a question that i have had for a long time...since perhaps 2000 olympics......
How do all the Olympic Gymnasts get their balances counted when they do not very often hold them long enough to get counted??


How long do you think they're supposed to hold them? It's not still rings. Laughing

If the gymnast is able to complete the two technical movements in the fixed position of the balance then it was held long enough.


hehe Laughing fair enough.....just sometimes it doesn't seem like its been held
thanks Smile
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sofia



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: greece..

PostPosted: Sun, 19-Oct-2008 11:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have to understand that in seminars they give some explanations that are not written in the code .
they give some tolerance in the body difficulties....because gymnasts are not superheroes.
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