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Help needed from the experts, Please!...

 
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Wed, 22-Feb-2012 22:44    Post subject: Help needed from the experts, Please!... Reply with quote

I stumbled across the following results from a competition .... as all of the text was in a language unknown to me, I could only make out the caterogry as FIG JUNIORS:

I need the forum's expertise and knowledge to tell me if these results are real and if they are possible.....I am pointing out the following:

Athlete x: D1.1 =3 D1.2=3 D2.1 =8.9 D2.2 = 8.9 A1 = 8.2 A2= 8.2 E1=8 E2= 7.6
Athlete y: D1.1 =6.6 D1.2=6.6 D2.1 =5.7 D2.2 = 5.7 A1 = 7.8 A2= 7.8 E1=7.4 E2= 7.2
Athlete z: D1.1 =4.7 D1.2=4.7 D2.1 =9.3 D2.2 = 9.3 A1 = 8.5 A2= 8.5 E1=7.9 E2= 7.9

So I guess my questions are the following:

Is it possible for an ahtlete to have such a low D and yet such a high E?
Is it possible to have a D1 low and yet a D2 that is high? followed by a mediocre to high E?

...and what about A? is it not affected by the D?

Stupid Stupid I am really confused, any insight will be greatly appreciated!!... Stupid Stupid
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andres



Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Tue, 6-Mar-2012 2:42    Post subject: Re: Help needed from the experts, Please!... Reply with quote

it depend ...

about first question is possible get an high E but a low D ..

Ledoux on minsk 2011 got an high E 9.050 but a low D 8.750 on her hoop routine.

the second question i did not understand the meaning of that phrase on your second question....
cuckoo for rhythmic wrote:
...followed by a mediocre to high E? ...
can you explain more what does you mean when says by a mediocre to high E....

A is not affected by D because Artistic panel evaluates music and composition and the meaning of A is give a meaning to the routine , music relation between expression and the main idea of the routine and artistic image..

i liked your avatar image
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becca



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue, 6-Mar-2012 16:10    Post subject: Re: Help needed from the experts, Please!... Reply with quote

cuckoo for rhythmic wrote:


Is it possible for an ahtlete to have such a low D and yet such a high E?
Is it possible to have a D1 low and yet a D2 that is high? followed by a mediocre to high E?


Q1. The gymnast might have a lower D1 as she is not capable of harder elements but performs them very cleanly to get a high E.

Q2. The gymnast might simply be incapable of perform hard D2 skills, and her risks might not be as difficult as other gymnasts. I would presume the gymnast put a fairly low start value for D2 which would make her E score a good score as she performed what she can do well.
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Tue, 6-Mar-2012 16:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both! Bounce

If you have a low D1, I understand from that that the athlete either does not have the body skills or did not do them.
If she has a low D2 it means that she does not have mastery or great difficulty with her throws or handling.

So you can have a routine with very low D but if they do it well then the E will not be affected.

Ok, got it!!!....but....

Are there not penalties for not having enought risks or difficulty in your routines? or is that for Seniors only and not for juniors?
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becca



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue, 6-Mar-2012 18:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe you only get that penalty if you are a senior, but if a junior decides not to put any risks in then their D2 score will be much lower than those that do as risks can be worth many points
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Tue, 6-Mar-2012 21:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for all your help!!!
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Tashik



Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Wed, 7-Mar-2012 9:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you all. However if she has low D1, high D2, high E - which means that she declared low D1 and made everything clean, then the value of A should be affected. A is not only music and the idea to the public. It is also about the variation of the body elements. If you have higher value on D1, you probably use more difficult elements and though you have more variation as some of the elements requires back flexibility, some leg flexibility, some good rotation and so on. With low value on D1, you are either not so flexible (variation goes down) or good at only one type of elements, for example rotations. Thus the variation goes down. Also the expression goes down as you cannot express the idea and the music with the body as much as someone with difficult D1-elements. This is my option
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Wed, 7-Mar-2012 19:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tashik wrote:
I agree with you all. However if she has low D1, high D2, high E - which means that she declared low D1 and made everything clean, then the value of A should be affected. A is not only music and the idea to the public. It is also about the variation of the body elements. If you have higher value on D1, you probably use more difficult elements and though you have more variation as some of the elements requires back flexibility, some leg flexibility, some good rotation and so on. With low value on D1, you are either not so flexible (variation goes down) or good at only one type of elements, for example rotations. Thus the variation goes down. Also the expression goes down as you cannot express the idea and the music with the body as much as someone with difficult D1-elements. This is my option


Soooo True! Thank you Tashik! Check this out from the same comp:

Athlete a: D1.1 =1.7 D1.2=1.7 D2.1 =6 D2.2 = 6.2 A1 = 7.2 A2= 7.2 E1=6.3 E2= 5.9
Athlete b: D1.1 =2.4 D1.2=2.4 D2.1 =6.2 D2.2 = 6.2 A1 = 7 A2= 7 E1=7.5 E2= 7.1
Athlete c: D1.1 =5.6 D1.2=5.6 D2.1 =7.2 D2.2 = 7.2 A1 = 6.4 A2= 6.4 E1=7.3 E2= 7.1
Athlete d: D1.1 =6.1 D1.2=6.1 D2.1 =7 D2.2 = 7.2 A1 = 7.1 A2= 7.1 E1=6.7 E2= 7.1 and a penalty of 0.2

I really don't know if there is a logical explanation for these scores!!!...they seem totally .... bizarre... what do you all think?....I am puzzled and curious....!!! It seems that the D, A and E judges were not sitting at the same table judging the same comp!!!!......
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becca



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Wed, 7-Mar-2012 21:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get a high A score you don't need the highest level of skill. You do need a range of skills but for example you can do high leg pivots with help for 0.2 value and ring balance for 0.3 value which shows a range of flexibility but still has a low start value. This gymnast that has a low D1 may be the next Bessonova and therefore should get high A score.

Athlete a in your example cuckoo, does confuse me a little as her D1, D2 and E are low yet her A is high but i would say it is possible to have that range. In the lower level countries you see that kind of range a lot as the gymnasts don't have the highest D1 but try to make up their points in other areas such as A and E.
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Marie



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 1293

PostPosted: Thu, 8-Mar-2012 13:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

cuckoo for rhythmic wrote:
It seems that the D, A and E judges were not sitting at the same table judging the same comp!!!!......


We have different judges panels because they evaluate different components of rhythmic gymnastics.

Different types of errors (drop of apparatus - poor body extension - performing out of sync with the music) affect the different components differently.

Different gymnasts have strengths in different components (one has excellent apparatus handling, another has great body extension, another is a great performer).

Even gymnasts who aim for the highest level, develop the different components at different paces.

In fact I would be more concerned if all four panels came out with the exact same ranking of the gymnasts.
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*Kalinka*



Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 2180
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Thu, 8-Mar-2012 15:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tashik wrote:
I agree with you all. However if she has low D1, high D2, high E - which means that she declared low D1 and made everything clean, then the value of A should be affected. A is not only music and the idea to the public. It is also about the variation of the body elements. If you have higher value on D1, you probably use more difficult elements and though you have more variation as some of the elements requires back flexibility, some leg flexibility, some good rotation and so on. With low value on D1, you are either not so flexible (variation goes down) or good at only one type of elements, for example rotations. Thus the variation goes down. Also the expression goes down as you cannot express the idea and the music with the body as much as someone with difficult D1-elements. This is my option

Actually in the Code there is only a 0.10 penality for insufficient variety in the choiche of the body elements, so I don't think Artistic value should be a lot affected by her low D1. Anyway a gymnast could perform easy but very different elements, so she wouldn't get any penality. For example: a backscale, a flexibility on the elbows, an illusion, a wave, a ronde are all low-valued flexibilities, but by performing them you show variety.

Anyway I rarely see Artistic scores lower than 7, even for not very good gymnasts and routines. There are not so many penalities in the Artistic value, and many of them are counted only once. So if the Artistic is very low probably the responsable is the coach, who hasn't assembled the routine properly, or the gymnast didn't go in rhythm for many times.
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Thu, 8-Mar-2012 23:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize if some of my questions seem “basic” but please bare with me as I try to understand…

The category we are talking about is Juniors. The maximum D they can declare is 8.5 (D1=7 D2=10). So this result:

Athlete k: D1.1 = 7.8 D1.2= 7.8 D2.1 = 5.3 D2.1= 5.3 A1= 7.7 A2= 7.7 E1=7.7 E2= 7.4 :

For a total of 21.800 points is …..a miracle!!!!! Shocked Very Happy

It makes sense to me that an athlete declares and that performs a high D1 with the equivalent D2 should also have this reflected in their A score and their E score.

Here are some examples from this competition:

Athlete l: D1.1 =6 D1.2= 6 D2.1 = 9.8 D2.1= 9.8 A1= 8.6 A2 8.6 E1=8.6 E2= 8.6
Athlete m: D1.1 = 6.3 D1.2= 6.3 D2.1 = 9.3 D2.1= 9.3 A1= 8.6 A2= 8.6 E1=8.6 E2= 8.6

Now look at this:

Athlete n: D1.1 = 1.7 D1.2= 1.7 D2.1 = 3.6 D2.1= 3.6 A1= 6.3 A2= 6.3 E1=8.9 E2= 5.7

Is it safe to say that this athlete not only did not have high values, but what she did have she did not “A” or “E” it correctly, right?

l, m, n results seem normal to me: High D performed nicely and executed well. Low D performed poorly and executed terribly.

So, from what we have seen so far we can:

1. Declare a low D and if performed (A) and executed (E) correctly you can have a decent total score

The question now becomes: what if you declare a high D and do not perform it would the score look like:

Athlete a: D1.1 =1.7 D1.2=1.7 D2.1 =6 D2.2 = 6.2 A1 = 7.2 A2= 7.2 E1=6.3 E2= 5.9

meaning reflected in her E?

Could it possibly look like this?

Athlete b: D1.1 =2.4 D1.2=2.4 messed up her elements
D2.1 =6.2 D2.2 = 6.2 but still got apparatus handling
A1 = 7 A2= 7 performed it well and
E1=7.5 E2= 7.1 executed it well?
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Marie



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 1293

PostPosted: Fri, 9-Mar-2012 11:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had written a long answer to the last post by cuckoo, but my session timed out and my answer was lost. I'll just summarize...

Athlete k: If this is indeed FIG junior COP, D1 and D2 should most likely be swapped (D1 in the 5s and D2 in the 7s).

The D1 score might be low for a number of different reasons, affecting E in different ways:

1. The gymnast declares a low starting value
1.1. ... but performs her simple difficulties according to COP and in a clean manner = rather high E
1.2. ... and performs her simple difficulties according to COP and in a clean manner, but has several apparatus drops, or knots, in elements that are not D1 = E will be rather low
1.3. ... and does not have nice body extension, sufficient amplitude, etc (young gymnast / has not spent many years in RG / lower number of training hours) = E will be rather low

2. The gymnast declares a high starting value
2.1. ... and performs her difficulties according to COP and in a clean manner = rather high E
2.2. ... and performs her difficulties according to COP and in a clean manner, but has several apparatus drops (or knots) in elements that are not D1 = E will be rather low
2.3. ... but does not reach the required shapes, does not fix balances, falls out of difficulties, etc = E will be rather low
2.4. ... and performs her difficulties according to COP and in a clean manner, BUT does not coordinate difficulties with mastery = rather high E (Coach might not have understood the COP very well, so that the gymnast simply does not perform what is required, even though she is capable. But more likely, the gymnast does not have strong apparatus handling and is unable to do mastery, which means that D2 would also be rather low, A would be slightly lower due to lack of variety in apparatus handling, and E would be slightly lower due to poor apparatus technique.)
2.4. ... and performs her difficulties without E penalties, but still does not get credit = E could still be quite high. An example is a gymnast that declares lots of rotations in pivots and flexibilities, but mostly does not complete even 360/180 degrees rotations. There is no E penalty for rotating less than 360 degrees, only for problems with the shape, falling out of the difficulty, etc.

Some of these examples don't happen very frequently. The point is just that we need to see the routines before we can discuss whether or not the scores are realistic. Obviously D scores of 10 and A/E scores of 5 are not realistic, but most of the scores posted here could be explained by different theories.
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cuckoo for rhythmic



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Fri, 9-Mar-2012 17:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the thing time out on me so many times...I now copy everything before hitting the submit button!!! Very Happy

The more I look at these results and the more I read your post the more I understand and I can't thank you all enough for your insight and analysis Love

With my new found understanding I can now tell that some of these results were not only athlete or coach based but also judge based. I am not convinced that all these athletes with the very low D1's are really managing mastery to explain the high D2's and "danced" their routine to explain away the high A's. Perhaps it is a developing sport for them and they are not very aware of the details of the COP.

Again, thank you all sooooooo very much for your insight and help!!!!
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