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Bessonova's clubs analysis 2008- Beijiing
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CoCoNuTsiopatHic



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 819

PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 2:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.

Quote:
I don't want to talk about the TV because if you gona judge all the gymnast with the same way all they will definitely have the same scores! But when you are cutting the elements so easy why you are counting her leap 0.80, its a shame for you the leap for this element must be a plit over 180 degree touching with the head!! Laughing Laughing


But if the judges were properly strict with the difficulties then gymnasts would not be doing difficulties out of their capability, so instead of getting 0.0 they could at least get 0.1 or 0.2 or something.

I guess I missed that about the Kabaeva leap. I always thought it was just a Split Leap to Back Split and failed to notice the arch required in the leap phase.

Quote:
And after that what can i say about the artistic value!! Do you know that the maximum CAP starting value is 7,00???? do you know that when you are losing the Body element you are loosing and the 0,20 for the A ??


How was this communicated to judges? Because I cannot find it written anywhere in the Code of Points that the CAP can only total 7.0 in the routine. It says in item 2.6 on page 27:

Quote:
Every gymnast must submit in advance and in writing the sequence of special artistic elements (CAP) (without adding them up) using the official form and the appropriate symbols, otherwise the gymnast cannot participate in the competition.
If there is no official podium training, the official form must be completed by adding the values.


I don't see anything in the section on the Modality for the Completion of the Forms that could be interpreted as saying that gymnasts have to specifically limit their CAP to 7.0, either. And I've looked in the 2007 Code of Points and in Newsletter 28.

I don't mean to dispute that this is what is practiced, but I just don't understand how it's communicated to be a rule if it's not in the Code of Points. I want to be able to open up the Code of Points and any corresponding Newsletters and have those be all I need to know how to properly evaluate an exercise. I can't go attend meetings with the Madame.

I was unaware that the Artistic panel is expected to determine if difficulties should be credited in order to apply the 0.2 CAP value for it. This isn't clearly expressed in the Code of Points, and I thought that as long as the basic nature of the difficulty is clear that it could be counted. I think that's a lot to ask of the Artistic panel--to evaluate CAP, choreography, and do the job of the difficulty panel, too.
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dalit



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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 6:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link from the Bul forum-it's the best way to count the elements.a great job Very Happy like sofia wrote-all this years the judges counted it and now in Beijing they found it wrong-well it's all politics,i remember that also in the past in the O.G. in 1996-Lukinenko had her special pivots(which were actually like half pivots),in the competitions before the Olympic they counted this element but suddenly in the O.G they find it wrong...Another comment,every 4 years a lot of people worked very hard on the new cop.BUT what is matter is how the judges use it-if they strict with ALL the gymnasts it's ok but if they strict only with few it's wrong..i remember also an oppoiste example in the cop ,in the years 1996-2000-there were bonus tenths in the AV that were given to a special choice of music and a great choreography,the judges were given automatically those tenths to (too) many gymnasts,while not all the routines really deserved them.(for example while they give it to all the routines of Alexandrova from Bul and that was fine ,they also gave it to the German gymnasts and it wasn't fair.(every tenth was really important in this cop because the vt was almost the same for everybody so you can understand the importance of this case).And back to our topic- i understand you are all talking about the difficulty in Bessonova's clubs routine because it was the only thing they were allowed to double check .but what about the EX?-Bessonova got a low mark of 9.05 for a clean routine(her only big mistake was the shaky balance in the begining ).while Kaprnova got 8.5 for a poor routine in the ex.-a big fall,a drop(with steps), some shaky balances etc and ONLY 0.5 point is the different betwwen those routines???i think it's not fair Exclamation (imo it should be at least one point).
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sofia



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 7:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

CoCoNuTsiopatHic wrote:
ANNA BESSONOVA, UKR – CLUBS

Difficulty:

1. B – Side split w/o help = 0.3
2. B – Side split w/o help w/ 360 deg. slow turn to Side scale = 1.1 (No value—Loss of balance; position of support leg not well-fixed)
3. F – Toe-up wave from rotation = 0.5
4. B – Front split w/o help = 0.3
5. F – Back scale w/ 180 deg. turn = 0.6 (No value—Arch of trunk not properly shown)
6. B – Arabesque = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
7. B – Front scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
8. B – Attitude = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
9. L – Cossack w/ leg high w/ ring = 0.5
10. L – Split leap to Back split w/ help = 0.8
11. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal on knee = 0.5
12. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
13. P – Attitude 1080 w/ shape change to Passé 1080 = 1.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
14. B – Back scale w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
15. P – Attitude 1080 = 0.6
16. B – Front split w/ help w/ circle to back split w/ help = 0.6 (No value—First phase not executed on releve)
17. B – Back split w/ help = 0.3 (No value—Circle of clubs not complete while balance is fixed)
18. B – Side split w/o help w/ 180 deg. slow turn = 0.5

Difficulty total = 5.500


CAP:

1. Handling: Difficulty (0.2) + Without hands + Both clubs + Outside visual field = 0.5
2. Handling: Without hands + Difficulty = 0.3
3. Handling: Total body wave (0.2) + Without hands + Both clubs = 0.4
4. Mills (0.1): Difficulty = 0.3
5. Mills = 0.1
6. Mills: Series + Change of plane + Total body wave = 0.5
7. Handling: Without hands + Both clubs + Outside visual field = 0.3
8. Mills: Outside visual field + Difficulty = 0.4 (No value—Arms too wide apart)
9. Handling: Difficulty + Without hands + Both clubs + Outside visual field = 0.5
10. Handling: Difficulty = 0.2
11. Large throw: Outside visual field = 0.1
12. Catch: Leap + Outside visual field = 0.2
13. Large throw: Leap + Both clubs = 0.2
14. Catch: Rotation + Both clubs = 0.2
15. Large throw: Leap = 0.1
16. Catch: Leap = 0.1
17. Large throw: Outside visual field + Leap + Both clubs = 0.3
18. Catch: Three dynamic elements + On floor + Both clubs = 0.5
19. Mills: Difficulty = 0.3
20. Mills: Difficulty + Outside visual field = 0.4 (No value—Irregular mills - Arms are bent)
21. Mills: Difficulty = 0.3
22. Mills: Series + Change of plane + Rhythmic steps = 0.4 (’Rhythmic steps’ discredited—Fourth step not clear – Value = 0.3)
23. Handling: Difficulty = 0.2
24. Handling: Difficulty = 0.2
25. Mills: Difficulty = 0.3
26. Large throw: Leap + Both clubs = 0.2
27. Catch: Two dynamic elements + On floor + Both clubs = 0.4

CAP total = 7.000

Basic Composition

Music: 1.000

Choreography: 1.600

-0.2 – Insufficient use of the apparatus technical groups.
-0.1 – Absence of variety in the use of space: Trajectories
-0.1 – Absence of variety in the use of space: Modes

Artistic total = 9.600


Execution:

2D – Shape not well-fixed: -0.1
2D – Loss of balance with traveling: -0.3
5D – Incorrectly held body segment: -0.1
6D – Shape not well-fixed: -0.1
8A – Arms too far apart in mills: -0.1
7D – Shape not well-fixed: -0.1
11D – Incorrectly held body segment: -0.1
12D – Incorrectly held body segment: -0.1
20A – Irregular movements: -0.1
13D – Shape not well-fixed: - 0.1
16D – Incorrectly held body segment: -0.1
16D – Incomplete movement: -0.1

Execution total: 8.600

Composition total: 7.550

TOTAL SCORE: 16.150


I'll do Kanaeva once the weekend is over.


first of all element 16 balance ....you don't have to do it on the releve,the first split......
second both balances two balances arabesque and attitude....are counted.
attitude it is FOR SURE 4 turns 0,80.....am I the only one ,who see that?????because with the math I learned in greek school...I count 1,2,3,4 Rolling Eyes
attitude -passe we may cannot count the third attitude...but we cannot erase the whole element.

about the flexibility it is an execution deduction...we cannot erase the value...if you remember during the competition in Abruzzini's screen....was the routine until the first jump...so there was something wrong with the two 0,20 balances.....

for me all the scores over 17,600 are fake...you are not judging with the code...
but we always see that they make a very stricked code...the first year of the new code we have low marks...and then they see that the top gymnasts are not superwomen and then they start changing thinks.....and many elements that we shouldn't count are counted for DV but have deduction for execution....which is fair ,because it very difficult for the girls .

if you do it for every gymnast you will see that their DV is very very low....don't try it for groups...you may not find DV at all...

I don't want to forget....you are worse than me in execution...so stricked... Evil or Very Mad ...very good job...but in these programms...believe me thre is not absence of anything.....and you don't put so many deductions in the same elements(that's what I had to learn in my beginning Embarassed ),otherwise the girls are screwed....
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AnnaBessonovaNumber1Fan



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 12:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

I count 4 attitude too Sofia Confused
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=marta=



Joined: 24 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 14:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnnaBessonovaNumber1Fan wrote:
I count 4 attitude too Sofia Confused

yes!they are absolutely 4 turns!
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Marts85



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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 16:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnnaBessonovaNumber1Fan wrote:
I count 4 attitude too Sofia Confused

Me too absolutely!
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ybalka_



Joined: 10 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sat, 6-Sep-2008 19:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

CoCoNuTsiopatHic THANK YOU very much for such an analysis¡¡¡ GREAT JOB¡¡

Marts85 wrote:
yes, the problem is that only bessonova's turns suddenly became not good for the COP.


Why you say this if they have been counted in her score Rolling Eyes

AnnaBessonovaNumber1Fan wrote:
I know. Her pivots havent been brought up in a topic before, until the contraversial score at Beijing. Now you start to critisise them, after YEARS of her doing them. Why now?


You're absolutely wrong, the attitude of Anna has been discussed many times and so was Vera's attitude, not is that now Anna has become for the thousand time your beloved victim of an universal complot Motz



An analysis will only be valid for you when EVERY element of her is counted, isn't it??
It would be good if you stopped to give lessons to people and show your analysis yourself if you are such a knower of COP...the score would be a perfect 20.000 though Laughing
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Marts85



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 13:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

ybalka_ wrote:
CoCoNuTsiopatHic THANK YOU very much for such an analysis¡¡¡ GREAT JOB¡¡

Marts85 wrote:
yes, the problem is that only bessonova's turns suddenly became not good for the COP.


Why you say this if they have been counted in her score Rolling Eyes



i just think that the point is: have the judges given the turns to bessonova?(we have doubts about it because of the swinging leg etc.) and instead for sure they gave some questionable element to others gymnast.

i think that the judges didn't use the same parameters with all the gymnasts, i'm not saying "bessonova's attitude is perfect."
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ybalka_



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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 20:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ybalka_"]CoCoNuTsiopatHic THANK YOU very much for such an analysis¡¡¡ GREAT JOB¡¡


Indeed, and the truth is that bessonova did a bad competition at Beijing, except clubs and ribbon, hence her position in podium. Wink. If she acted well, she could be even before Inna.

I don't want any proof. So, if you're not a judge like CoCoNuTsiopatHic, your analysis could be as wrong as those of her, isn't it?? Laughing
At least she/he made it and as we all can see, that at least, she has a strong knowledge of Cop to do such an analysis.
But we're on the same, what you call errors (as a Bessonova ultrafan) may be correct for other people. It's normal, everyones likes to see their "own truth".
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FaerieDevilish



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 21:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry, Bess - I will do that, too. As they say in my 'town', "To obdurate roars, deaf ears".


Going back on topic, I can see why CoCo's analysis has caused such controversy, but I cannot see how said controversy can be justified COP-wise.

I also see 4 attitudes (with dubious shape too), but you guys make it sound like .2 could totally give Anna the gold medal.
Arabesque and attitude balances were not entirely fixed. Maybe some judges overlook it in competitions, but CoCo's judging is strict, and strictly speaking those balances just cannot count.

Also, I agree with Ybalka. Anna's attitudes have been controversial forever, and many times it has been said that, even if they are absolutely pleasing to watch, most of the time they wouldn't be counted with strict judging.

The only objection I have, in short, to CoCo's analysis is the quadruple attitude (but at the same time think the execution score could have been a tad bit generous.
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sofia



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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 21:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOOOOOOOO ...no gold...she did a bad bad bad competition....If you remember after the first day I wrote that I cannot except that she did so many mistakes ....you are competing in Olympic games.....you should be prepared....and it is not like she did one mistake...so many obvious ....I mean she couldn't finish her rope routines on time both times!!!

but I think her club routine was a typical example how they tried to put another russian on the podium....I am not talking about the two first medals( I will say it again-I was so disappointed from Zhenya...maybe she was too early prepared,maybe she was the best...but her scores!!!!!....anya got what she deserved but they made her to doubt until the last second and this is bad....that's why I talking part in this topic.

her attitude balance for me was ok(see the topic frm Events and results)-ok this is what I believe ....her arabesque wasn't so good ...but even if we don't counted she is over 8,10 for sure.

her attitude pivots are Rolling Eyes ....but this time was much better than other times.....which was like she swallowed an earthquake Embarassed


Last edited by sofia on Sun, 7-Sep-2008 23:29; edited 2 times in total
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ybalka_



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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 22:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

sofia wrote:
NOOOOOOOO ...no gold...she did a bad bad bad competition....If you remember after the first day I wrote that I cannot except that she did so many mistakes ....you are competing in Olympic games.....you should be prepared....and it is not like she did one mistake...so many obvious ....I mean she couldn't finish her rope routines on time both times!!!

but I think her club routine was a typical example how they tried to put another russian on the podium....I am not talking about the two first medals( I will say it again-I was so disappointed from Zhenya...maybe she was too early prepared,maybe she was the best...but her scores!!!!!....anya got what she deserved but they made her to doupt until the last second and this is bad....that's why I talking part in this topic.


I cannot agree more in this, the point is that when you're used to watch perfect routines from a gymnast, the minimum mistakes makes you put your hand in head. And that's what happens with Anna IMO. On the contrary, when Kapranova does only "one" mistake, we cosider it to be a nice routine from her. Strange but true.
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sofia



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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 22:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

ybalka_ wrote:
sofia wrote:
NOOOOOOOO ...no gold...she did a bad bad bad competition....If you remember after the first day I wrote that I cannot except that she did so many mistakes ....you are competing in Olympic games.....you should be prepared....and it is not like she did one mistake...so many obvious ....I mean she couldn't finish her rope routines on time both times!!!

but I think her club routine was a typical example how they tried to put another russian on the podium....I am not talking about the two first medals( I will say it again-I was so disappointed from Zhenya...maybe she was too early prepared,maybe she was the best...but her scores!!!!!....anya got what she deserved but they made her to doupt until the last second and this is bad....that's why I talking part in this topic.


I cannot agree more in this, the point is that when you're used to watch perfect routines from a gymnast, the minimum mistakes makes you put your hand in head. And that's what happens with Anna IMO. On the contrary, when Kapranova does only "one" mistake, we cosider it to be a nice routine from her. Strange but true.
Very Happy
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sofia



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PostPosted: Sun, 7-Sep-2008 23:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

ybalka_ wrote:
sofia wrote:
NOOOOOOOO ...no gold...she did a bad bad bad competition....If you remember after the first day I wrote that I cannot except that she did so many mistakes ....you are competing in Olympic games.....you should be prepared....and it is not like she did one mistake...so many obvious ....I mean she couldn't finish her rope routines on time both times!!!

but I think her club routine was a typical example how they tried to put another russian on the podium....I am not talking about the two first medals( I will say it again-I was so disappointed from Zhenya...maybe she was too early prepared,maybe she was the best...but her scores!!!!!....anya got what she deserved but they made her to doupt until the last second and this is bad....that's why I talking part in this topic.


I cannot agree more in this, the point is that when you're used to watch perfect routines from a gymnast, the minimum mistakes makes you put your hand in head. And that's what happens with Anna IMO. On the contrary, when Kapranova does only "one" mistake, we cosider it to be a nice routine from her. Strange but true.


I am so happy that we agree..... Wink
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FaerieDevilish



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PostPosted: Mon, 8-Sep-2008 0:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because I don't like being tagged as one of those "hardcore Bessonova fans were blinded by their love towards her and can't get facts straight", and encouraging your participation seems a very direct way to give people more reasons to say we're all sh%t. I want to appreciate Bessonova without implying that I'm a bit of an idiot, you know.

That explained, I have to say I'm sorry for being the arrogance on legs I hate in e-forums, but people have taken this blindness too far. And now I deafen my ears as promised.



Agreed with Ybalka on how our standards vary per gymnast, especially when Kapra or Kabaeva are involved :p

About Zhenya, I don't think any of us has a doubt of how overscored she was. About 19 for that clubs routine is an insult. She competed for gold, though, and got it. Advocates of Bessonova or advocates of the little Russian girl that got degraded by Kanaeva are not happy, I guess, but there is no rational argument that can put her down. That said, you can't all jump over CoCo for his analysis - especially when he hasn't even posted the one for Zhenya's Laughing
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