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sofia
Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Posts: 2282 Location: greece..
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Posted: Mon, 8-Sep-2008 0:17 Post subject: |
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sofia wrote: |
I don't want to forget....you are worse than me in execution...so stricked... ...very good job...but in these programms...believe me thre is not absence of anything.....and you don't put so many deductions in the same elements(that's what I had to learn in my beginning ),otherwise the girls are screwed.... |
I just wanted to explain some things because even though did a very good job (as I wrote)there are some mistakes for me ,which is normal.....as for stricked...I was being funny (I thought that was obvious)cause in my begging I was like that and I was so stricked ....that they advised me not to be...... |
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ybalka_
Joined: 10 Oct 2004 Posts: 1538
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Posted: Mon, 8-Sep-2008 0:38 Post subject: |
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FaerieDevilish wrote: | Agreed with Ybalka on how our standards vary per gymnast, especially when Kapra or Kabaeva are involved :p |
But don't get me wrong, I do not like Kapra at all¡¡¡ |
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FaerieDevilish
Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 1080 Location: Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted: Mon, 8-Sep-2008 23:05 Post subject: |
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ybalka_ wrote: |
But don't get me wrong, I do not like Kapra at all¡¡¡ |
Hahahaha don't worry, I know you don't!!!
But if anyone does like Olya, well - we all have different tastes _________________ "Olympism is a doctrine of the fraternity between the body and the soul."
-Pierre de Coubertin
(Photo by Tom Theobald) |
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Invisible Hedgehog
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 1718 Location: Ukraine, Kyiv
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Posted: Wed, 10-Sep-2008 16:04 Post subject: |
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nice analysis, thanks. you know, Voltaire once said : "Perharps I will not agree with your opinion but I will give my life to hear it".
I want to see Kanaeva's if you were that harsh to Bessonova _________________ Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat
check - http://www.ukraine-rg.com ! |
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Marts85
Joined: 20 Jul 2008 Posts: 634 Location: Italy
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Posted: Wed, 10-Sep-2008 16:52 Post subject: |
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Invisible Hedgehog wrote: | nice analysis, thanks. you know, Voltaire once said : "Perharps I will not agree with your opinion but I will give my life to hear it".
I want to see Kanaeva's if you were that harsh to Bessonova |
you can find kanaeva's clubs analisys in the last pages of "I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS" topic... i don't know why it wasn't moved in another topic. _________________ And she stood in that regal, yet beautifully defiant, pose and waited for her music to start. |
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Invisible Hedgehog
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 1718 Location: Ukraine, Kyiv
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Posted: Wed, 10-Sep-2008 18:49 Post subject: |
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I managed to find the video so here are my comments.
Pro Russian judge
0.30 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.30 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.80 + 0.50 + 0.50 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.6 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50
Total : 7.0
Normal judge
0.30 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.30 + 0.60 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.80 + 0.50 + 0.50 + 1.2 + 0.5 + 0.8 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50
Total : 8.5
1. B – Side split w/o help = 0.3
2. B – Side split w/o help w/ 360 deg. slow turn to Side scale = 1.1 (No value—Loss of balance; position of support leg not well-fixed)
yes I agree of course that it is a 0.0
3. F – Toe-up wave from rotation = 0.5
4. B – Front split w/o help = 0.3
5. F – Back scale w/ 180 deg. turn = 0.6 (No value—Arch of trunk not properly shown)
here I disagree. which arch of trunk do you need? to bend over her supporting leg? it is EXACTLY what is written in the Code of Points - back scale of the trunk (is it written HOW MUCH she should bend???) and rotation on 180 degrees. That is right what she does.
6. B – Arabesque = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
Pro Russian judge - agreed
Normal judge - it is OK
7. B – Front scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
8. B – Attitude = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
hmm she fixes it quite well in fact
9. L – Cossack w/ leg high w/ ring = 0.5
10. L – Split leap to Back split w/ help = 0.8
11. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal on knee = 0.5
12. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
13. P – Attitude 1080 w/ shape change to Passé 1080 = 1.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
OMG, IF HER LEG did bend BELOW the horizontal line during the biggest part of the pivot - then of course it cannot be counted, but here she does really well 3+3 = 1.2. I think for a Russian judge it will not cause a problem
There were A LOT of discussions on her attitudes during around 2002-2004 when really her hip went low often though she still had many rotations but here I strongly disagree. Sesina had the same question earlier as well but she also improved.
14. B – Back scale w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
15. P – Attitude 1080 = 0.6
I would really say that it is 0.80.
Pro Russian judge 0.60
16. B – Front split w/ help w/ circle to back split w/ help = 0.6 (No value—First phase not executed on releve)
I disagree here as well because she raises on releve and it is not a problem
17. B – Back split w/ help = 0.3 (No value—Circle of clubs not complete while balance is fixed)
I agree.
18. B – Side split w/o help w/ 180 deg. slow turn = 0.5 _________________ Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat
check - http://www.ukraine-rg.com ! |
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sofia
Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Posts: 2282 Location: greece..
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Posted: Wed, 10-Sep-2008 20:41 Post subject: |
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Invisible Hedgehog wrote: | I managed to find the video so here are my comments.
Pro Russian judge
0.30 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.30 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.80 + 0.50 + 0.50 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.6 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50
Total : 7.0
Normal judge
0.30 + 0.00 + 0.50 + 0.30 + 0.60 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.20 + 0.50 + 0.80 + 0.50 + 0.50 + 1.2 + 0.5 + 0.8 + 0.60 + 0.00 + 0.50
Total : 8.5
1. B – Side split w/o help = 0.3
2. B – Side split w/o help w/ 360 deg. slow turn to Side scale = 1.1 (No value—Loss of balance; position of support leg not well-fixed)
yes I agree of course that it is a 0.0
3. F – Toe-up wave from rotation = 0.5
4. B – Front split w/o help = 0.3
5. F – Back scale w/ 180 deg. turn = 0.6 (No value—Arch of trunk not properly shown)
here I disagree. which arch of trunk do you need? to bend over her supporting leg? it is EXACTLY what is written in the Code of Points - back scale of the trunk (is it written HOW MUCH she should bend???) and rotation on 180 degrees. That is right what she does.
6. B – Arabesque = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
Pro Russian judge - agreed
Normal judge - it is OK
7. B – Front scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
8. B – Attitude = 0.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
hmm she fixes it quite well in fact
9. L – Cossack w/ leg high w/ ring = 0.5
10. L – Split leap to Back split w/ help = 0.8
11. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal on knee = 0.5
12. B – Side scale w/ split w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
13. P – Attitude 1080 w/ shape change to Passé 1080 = 1.2 (No value—Position not well-fixed)
OMG, IF HER LEG did bend BELOW the horizontal line during the biggest part of the pivot - then of course it cannot be counted, but here she does really well 3+3 = 1.2. I think for a Russian judge it will not cause a problem
There were A LOT of discussions on her attitudes during around 2002-2004 when really her hip went low often though she still had many rotations but here I strongly disagree. Sesina had the same question earlier as well but she also improved.
14. B – Back scale w/ trunk at horizontal = 0.5
15. P – Attitude 1080 = 0.6
I would really say that it is 0.80.
Pro Russian judge 0.60
16. B – Front split w/ help w/ circle to back split w/ help = 0.6 (No value—First phase not executed on releve)
I disagree here as well because she raises on releve and it is not a problem
17. B – Back split w/ help = 0.3 (No value—Circle of clubs not complete while balance is fixed)
I agree.
18. B – Side split w/o help w/ 180 deg. slow turn = 0.5 |
from your first post I thought that my analysis was bad....but I see that we agree in everything even in degrees!!!! |
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FaerieDevilish
Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 1080 Location: Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted: Wed, 10-Sep-2008 23:08 Post subject: |
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Invisible Hedgehog wrote: |
OMG, IF HER LEG did bend BELOW the horizontal line during the biggest part of the pivot - then of course it cannot be counted, but here she does really well 3+3 = 1.2. I think for a Russian judge it will not cause a problem
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IH, I can assure you that in few places you will find supporters of Anya as avid as CoCo is. Not only admiration for beauty and charm, but the one that comes from knowing the technical value of her performances is the aspiration of gymnasts - if not, they might as well become models or TV spokespeople (and the ones who were in for that did become human mannequins, so there isn't much room for error there).
That said, I don't understand why you take such a defensive stand on Anna in this case. CoCo has not even posted the analysis on Kanaeva or Zhukova, and he's not saying either that she should have been off the podium. I don't think I saw a post from you thanking him either for all the support he showed to Anna before, during and after the competition - it is not your job -at all-, but the truth is that defending Anna from her true fans isn't either.
Thread is for COP discussion... not for COP flaming. His judging is strict, clearly unlike the one we see in these events (how can a COP function when it is impossible to reach a perfect score? These old ladies need to remain in the Games somehow!). Here, no one is defending a spot in the Olympics. _________________ "Olympism is a doctrine of the fraternity between the body and the soul."
-Pierre de Coubertin
(Photo by Tom Theobald) |
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ybalka_
Joined: 10 Oct 2004 Posts: 1538
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 0:31 Post subject: |
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Is way TOO funny how it derived to a question of a pro-russian / pro-ucranian judgement.
As if a neutral knower of the cop couldn't make his/her own analysis without be called prorussian/proucranian fan.
Other thing, IH calls pro-russian judgement when things are not counted, but when you count almost everything on anna's routine...what are you, a pro-ucranian judge then?? So, you are as corrupt as any pro-russian judge by favouring your gymnast....Well...I'm just phylosophying, too off topic... |
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Belosnegka
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 1730 Location: Russia Moscow
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 15:33 Post subject: |
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Pro Russian judge=awful judge
Normal judge=pro-ucranian? |
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Crazy_fan
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 215
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 15:44 Post subject: |
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You know, these discussions sort of provoke the question: why don't we talk about "pro- Belarus" judging or "pro-Bulgarian" judging. Well, because the Ukraine and Russia are the powers in the sport right now, to put it simply.
Yes, Kapranova and Kanaeva recieve high scores, and so does Bessonova. Zhukova, though, gets penalized for every little error...she has to come out 100% clean to hope to place well. Oh, and the "pro-ukrainian" mood only affects Bessonova, Godunko is underscored every single time and nobody seems to complain about it. Ever. I mean, give me a break, have you seen Godunko's ribbon routines in the last couple of years? Nobody, nobody has her ribbon technique. Yet, someone like Yussupova and Garaeva, who can barely control the ribbon habitually scores higher than her. You know, I would file a protest, if I were in Deriugina's place. But no. Only when Anna does a not-so-clean club routine, suddenly, we do have a protest, and the whole world has to watch us make a scene.
I still think that the whole issue with Bessonova's clubs is simply blown out of proportion. I don't see what is so controversial about it at all. It was a fair score. Yes, there are little things we disagree about, on some elements. But overall it was fair. We should all get over it and talk about who in the Ukrainian team will replace Bessonova, actually. _________________ Filipa Siderova- the future of Bulgarian gymnastics! |
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Invisible Hedgehog
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 1718 Location: Ukraine, Kyiv
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 15:55 Post subject: |
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I was asked to make an analysis - I did so.
Quote: | That said, I don't understand why you take such a defensive stand on Anna in this case. CoCo has not even posted the analysis on Kanaeva or Zhukova, and he's not saying either that she should have been off the podium. I don't think I saw a post from you thanking him either for all the support he showed to Anna before, during and after the competition - it is not your job -at all-, but the truth is that defending Anna from her true fans isn't either. |
in fact I do not see where I offended the another person making analysis. I just expressed my personal opinion which I hope can be different on such an independent forum. In fact I did thank for the analysis, you should read above. I am very optimistic and I am for all the usefull critism (this kind of critisism I find useful, when it has some foundation). All analysis are useful. We study them all in Ukraine whoever makes them on this forum and try to use them during trainings to correct mistakes. It is normal and it is refreshing to see somebody else's opinion because you might find some things which you never notice before. For example, for that back scale balance I must say that it is really true that we cannot count it because she does not do full circle and surely we will correct it for Anna's routine during World Cup final and I hope you will notice it.
However despite all visible necessity to have these analysis, i find it OK to have a different opinion. And in fact, now the world is REALLY divided between Pro Russian judges and trying to be neutral judges. I do not know ANY pro ukrainian judge, except for ukrainian judges themselves. Maybe somebody who knows more about it, can name me some judges who are pro ukrainian. I will be pleased to get acquanted with them.
Quote: |
PostPosted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 15:44 Post subject:
You know, these discussions sort of provoke the question: why don't we talk about "pro- Belarus" judging or "pro-Bulgarian" judging. Well, because the Ukraine and Russia are the powers in the sport right now, to put it simply.
Yes, Kapranova and Kanaeva recieve high scores, and so does Bessonova. Zhukova, though, gets penalized for every little error...she has to come out 100% clean to hope to place well. Oh, and the "pro-ukrainian" mood only affects Bessonova, Godunko is underscored every single time and nobody seems to complain about it. Ever. I mean, give me a break, have you seen Godunko's ribbon routines in the last couple of years? Nobody, nobody has her ribbon technique. Yet, someone like Yussupova and Garaeva, who can barely control the ribbon habitually scores higher than her. You know, I would file a protest, if I were in Deriugina's place. But no. Only when Anna does a not-so-clean club routine, suddenly, we do have a protest, and the whole world has to watch us make a scene. |
About Godunko : unfortunately we can't make protests on ribbon technique etc and apparatus work which belongs to artistry. We could make a protest only in difficulty. in fact I think Godunko had fine difficulty scores (same as bessonova in rope, higher than bessonova in clubs etc). But I agree that she is always underscored. and so is Bessonova.
Quote: | Other thing, IH calls pro-russian judgement when things are not counted, but when you count almost everything on anna's routine...what are you, a pro-ucranian judge then?? So, you are as corrupt as any pro-russian judge by favouring your gymnast....Well...I'm just phylosophying, too off topic... Laughing |
i would say that corruption is when you buy somebody. neither russian or ukrainian judge are pro russian or pro ukrainian because they are corrupted but because it is their homeland and it is their country. concerning pro russian and pro ukrainian you can read above. If I was pro ukrainian judge I would count more, I would say )))) I tried to judge neutrally because there is no sense to be partial now because everything is already over. For me myself it is important to see the truth and to find motivation to stay in this sport after these olympic games. _________________ Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat
check - http://www.ukraine-rg.com !
Last edited by Invisible Hedgehog on Thu, 11-Sep-2008 16:22; edited 1 time in total |
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ybalka_
Joined: 10 Oct 2004 Posts: 1538
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 15:56 Post subject: |
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Belosnegka wrote: | Pro Russian judge=awful judge
Normal judge=pro-ucranian? |
It seems to be like that...
Crazy_fan wrote: | I still think that the whole issue with Bessonova's clubs is simply blown out of proportion. I don't see what is so controversial about it at all. It was a fair score. Yes, there are little things we disagree about, on some elements. But overall it was fair. We should all get over it and talk about who in the Ukrainian team will replace Bessonova, actually. |
You know, in the last 5 years there has not been a competition where Anna didn't finish as a poor victim of the malefic Russian domination, so, Olympics couldn't be less and if she does not end as the victim of the story, people won't be completely happy. |
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Crazy_fan
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 Posts: 215
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 18:30 Post subject: |
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ybalka_ wrote: | Belosnegka wrote: | Pro Russian judge=awful judge
Normal judge=pro-ucranian? |
It seems to be like that...
Crazy_fan wrote: | I still think that the whole issue with Bessonova's clubs is simply blown out of proportion. I don't see what is so controversial about it at all. It was a fair score. Yes, there are little things we disagree about, on some elements. But overall it was fair. We should all get over it and talk about who in the Ukrainian team will replace Bessonova, actually. |
You know, in the last 5 years there has not been a competition where Anna didn't finish as a poor victim of the malefic Russian domination, so, Olympics couldn't be less and if she does not end as the victim of the story, people won't be completely happy. |
True, it has been 5 years. I am kind of ready for this period to be over. I like watching Anna Bessonova perform but all the whining and screaming when she doesn't win is just too much. _________________ Filipa Siderova- the future of Bulgarian gymnastics! |
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Belosnegka
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 1730 Location: Russia Moscow
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Posted: Thu, 11-Sep-2008 21:56 Post subject: |
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Crazy_fan
ybalka_ +1
They (Derug.) have made a victim of Anna. They have thought up this game and in it the rules and the purposes. This psychological influence. The beautiful gymnast, exellent dancer, almost all compositions tragical, very musical and didn't become the champion? SHOCKINGLY!
Anna plays by their rules.
Why in Patras the Russian delegation hasn't submitted the protest on Sesina scores for rope?
I will not continue.
Sorry for offtop.When every day I read mucks about sportsmen of my country, nerves don't maintain.
At first all were in a shock from young Alina. Then her victories have bothered. Began to speak about her mucks. Have grown Vera and Olga. Îlya "has received" mostly. Because won against Anna. When Zhenya was junior, all admired with her talent. Now start «to wash bones» to her. |
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