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butterflyRG
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Posts: 296
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Posted: Mon, 16-Dec-2013 19:34 Post subject: |
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It is 2014! Then I am expecting someone will go to the court, and suppose that while the case is on-going, she could still act if "not suspended". Otherwise, there is no point to appeal as the court could take much longer to settle and much more expensive... |
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Gergely
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 2260 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Tue, 17-Dec-2013 19:29 Post subject: |
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They are suspended anyway. The only court which can change this is the CAS (Court of Sports Arbitration, the hightest sports law forum) - but while an appeal to CAS is made and CAS decides on it, the TC members stay suspended. _________________ "Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils." |
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butterflyRG
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Posts: 296
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Posted: Thu, 19-Dec-2013 18:23 Post subject: |
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Gergely wrote: | They are suspended anyway. The only court which can change this is the CAS (Court of Sports Arbitration, the hightest sports law forum) - but while an appeal to CAS is made and CAS decides on it, the TC members stay suspended. |
Do you know if this appeal in CAS is on behalf of all TC members or it is just filed by some member/members? |
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Gergely
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 2260 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Thu, 19-Dec-2013 21:05 Post subject: |
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I don't know if they decide to appeal or not. IIRC the appeal has to be done individually, because CAS deals with cases of individual athletes or organisations.
(CAS site says: "Any individual or legal entity with capacity to act may have recourse to the services of the CAS. These include athletes, clubs, sports federations, organisers of sports events, sponsors or television companies.")
Earlier in this year FIG did not go to the CAS when losing at the Appeal Tribunal, and I don't see any sign yet that the TC members would bring the case further. But we'll see.
BTW digging in the CAS case archive you can find Tchachina's doping case (furosemide use) and the Irina Deriugina case from 2008. _________________ "Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils." |
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Erik
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 179 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri, 20-Dec-2013 15:05 Post subject: Some judges allow themselves everything |
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Some judges never learn,
Shame on superior judges here for favoring their own club in such a scandalous way during the national championships of groups in Spain
Everybody can clearly see and hear how the public is reacting to this injustice.
Judges like this should be suspended by their federations for at least a year !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L54OcuieJAo _________________ Photo made by my friend Barny Thierolf |
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*Kalinka*
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 Posts: 2180 Location: Italy
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Posted: Fri, 20-Dec-2013 22:49 Post subject: Re: Some judges allow themselves everything |
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Erik wrote: | Some judges never learn,
Shame on superior judges here for favoring their own club in such a scandalous way during the national championships of groups in Spain
Everybody can clearly see and hear how the public is reacting to this injustice.
Judges like this should be suspended by their federations for at least a year !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L54OcuieJAo |
I know that injustices should not happen, but the audience should feel even more ashamed than the judges for this behavior! Blame the judges, not the gymnast! And, above all, you cannot whistle at them and and do that gestures while they are entering on the carpet!
I would suspend these people from going to any sporting event for at least 100 years! |
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Erik
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 179 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat, 21-Dec-2013 9:42 Post subject: |
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Try to explain your point of view to the 200,000 people protesting in Ukraine.
People will always react to injustice. They always did and they always will.
I do not approve the method they used in Granada but this was caused by the behaviour of cheating and injustice judges.
The people are always right
Erik _________________ Photo made by my friend Barny Thierolf |
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Gergely
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 2260 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Sat, 21-Dec-2013 13:03 Post subject: |
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The crowd's anger is directed at the former score and the judge panel I guess (at least everyone looks away from the carpet). I'd like to have a summary from someone who has been present.
I think the crowd has the right to voice their discontent. I also know that it's terrible for the gymnasts who are just about to enter, but if the fans had enough (and it really looks like they are mightily pissed off), they will snap once or twice. You can't be always polite and clap, no matter what you see.
It's a double-edged sword - awful for the gymnast, but in general I think voicing openly your disgust and discontent is better than staying silent. If the fans see outright cheating, they should well be outraged and let it out. _________________ "Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils." |
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maksymehappy
Joined: 02 Apr 2013 Posts: 504
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Posted: Sun, 22-Dec-2013 11:23 Post subject: Re: Some judges allow themselves everything |
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*Kalinka* wrote: | I would suspend these people from going to any sporting event for at least 100 years! |
Is that 100 of our earth years or 100 rhythmic judge years, in which case with their 9 lives they should be there again and available for masonic handshakes at a quarter past two.
You could make a good dictator, Kalinka. I'm thinking of awarding you a small principality. |
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*Kalinka*
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 Posts: 2180 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun, 22-Dec-2013 14:56 Post subject: |
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Gergely wrote: | The crowd's anger is directed at the former score and the judge panel I guess (at least everyone looks away from the carpet).
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In the video it looks the crowd's anger is directed to the gymnasts, because the audience starts to gesticulate looking at them, as soon as they enter on the carpet. I agree with you with the fact that people have the right to express their opinion, and that being silent is wrong, but there are more respectful ways to show displeasure. If they don't agree with the scores, they can complain when the score appears on the screen, or during the awards ceremony. Of course this won't make the gymnasts happy, but at least this would be civilized protest.
Someone is calling me "dictator", but I simply don't like seeing unsporting behaviors during a sporting event. If unfair scores can't be tolerated because they are against the basics of "sport", neither whistling at a gymnast can be legitimized. Otherwise, the audience of the RG competitions will become as distusting as the one of the football matches, with racist chants, insults to the players, banners with writings as "Hi, shits!", throwing of objects, smoke bombs and firecrackers... and it happens much more! Because of this behavior, some matches are held without audience.
But hey, let's tolerate every wrong behavior by the audience! At least they can express their opinion! Who cares about the gymnasts?
And unfortunately I have seen with my eyes many episodes of unfair judging. Some of them happened at a competition I was attending. I was angry, but whistling at the overscored gymnasts never came into my mind. |
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ybalka_
Joined: 10 Oct 2004 Posts: 1538
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Posted: Sun, 22-Dec-2013 18:15 Post subject: |
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*Kalinka* wrote: | Gergely wrote: | The crowd's anger is directed at the former score and the judge panel I guess (at least everyone looks away from the carpet).
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In the video it looks the crowd's anger is directed to the gymnasts, because the audience starts to gesticulate looking at them, as soon as they enter on the carpet. I agree with you with the fact that people have the right to express their opinion, and that being silent is wrong, but there are more respectful ways to show displeasure. If they don't agree with the scores, they can complain when the score appears on the screen, or during the awards ceremony. Of course this won't make the gymnasts happy, but at least this would be civilized protest.
Someone is calling me "dictator",1) but I simply don't like seeing unsporting behaviors during a sporting event. If unfair scores can't be tolerated because they are against the basics of "sport", neither whistling at a gymnast can be legitimized. Otherwise, the audience of the RG competitions will become as distusting as the one of the football matches, with racist chants, insults to the players, banners with writings as "Hi, shits!", throwing of objects, smoke bombs and firecrackers... and it happens much more! Because of this behavior, some matches are held without audience.
2) But hey, let's tolerate every wrong behavior by the audience! At least they can express their opinion! Who cares about the gymnasts?
And unfortunately I have seen with my eyes many episodes of unfair judging. Some of them happened at a competition I was attending. I was angry, but whistling at the overscored gymnasts never came into my mind. |
1) Haha, tell judges about that!
2) Can you please tell me how many times in the last three decades RG audience had a wrong behaviour (and ALWAYS towards the judges corruption)? Three? four? and now can you tell me how many injustices there has been in those three decades? Countless.
So, I am sorry to say it like this but you shouldn't talk so freely if you have no idea of what actually happened We are always complaining about judges' scores when they are unfair and judges don't give a shit about our "civilised" protest as you say, and things never change. What happened here was the drop that makes the vase overfolw, such an evident injustice that it was like a direct insult to the audience intelligence, 90% of the audience being true RG followers that really know about what they see on the carpet.
They booed to thee judges and no one else, in fact after the booing, the girls performed and the audience applauded them madly almost getting the walls of the pavilion to fall as an "apology" and to let them know that they had nothing to do with the complaint.
I praise your respect for gymnasts, impassivity regarding injustices and beautiful "peace" speech, but sometimes coming to the forum and saying "oh judges are crazy, they should stop being so mean!!" as your fiercest protest is not enough, you should know that by now after all these extreme corruption years. |
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Gergely
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 2260 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Sun, 22-Dec-2013 19:38 Post subject: |
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ybalka_ wrote: | *Kalinka* wrote: | Gergely wrote: | The crowd's anger is directed at the former score and the judge panel I guess (at least everyone looks away from the carpet).
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In the video it looks the crowd's anger is directed to the gymnasts, because the audience starts to gesticulate looking at them, as soon as they enter on the carpet. I agree with you with the fact that people have the right to express their opinion, and that being silent is wrong, but there are more respectful ways to show displeasure. If they don't agree with the scores, they can complain when the score appears on the screen, or during the awards ceremony. Of course this won't make the gymnasts happy, but at least this would be civilized protest.
Someone is calling me "dictator",1) but I simply don't like seeing unsporting behaviors during a sporting event. If unfair scores can't be tolerated because they are against the basics of "sport", neither whistling at a gymnast can be legitimized. Otherwise, the audience of the RG competitions will become as distusting as the one of the football matches, with racist chants, insults to the players, banners with writings as "Hi, shits!", throwing of objects, smoke bombs and firecrackers... and it happens much more! Because of this behavior, some matches are held without audience.
2) But hey, let's tolerate every wrong behavior by the audience! At least they can express their opinion! Who cares about the gymnasts?
And unfortunately I have seen with my eyes many episodes of unfair judging. Some of them happened at a competition I was attending. I was angry, but whistling at the overscored gymnasts never came into my mind. |
1) Haha, tell judges about that!
2) Can you please tell me how many times in the last three decades RG audience had a wrong behaviour (and ALWAYS towards the judges corruption)? Three? four? and now can you tell me how many injustices there has been in those three decades? Countless.
So, I am sorry to say it like this but you shouldn't talk so freely if you have no idea of what actually happened We are always complaining about judges' scores when they are unfair and judges don't give a shit about our "civilised" protest as you say, and things never change. What happened here was the drop that makes the vase overfolw, such an evident injustice that it was like a direct insult to the audience intelligence, 90% of the audience being true RG followers that really know about what they see on the carpet.
They booed to thee judges and no one else, in fact after the booing, the girls performed and the audience applauded them madly almost getting the walls of the pavilion to fall as an "apology" and to let them know that they had nothing to do with the complaint.
I praise your respect for gymnasts, impassivity regarding injustices and beautiful "peace" speech, but sometimes coming to the forum and saying "oh judges are crazy, they should stop being so mean!!" as your fiercest protest is not enough, you should know that by now after all these extreme corruption years. |
ybalka_, do you happen to know if there is an online video of the routine and the score which caused the protests? I'd be very interested in it.
I really agree about this: "We are always complaining about judges' scores when they are unfair and judges don't give a shit about our "civilised" protest as you say, and things never change." I'd say we're even too peaceful on the stands, most of the time. I think you absolutely can raise your voice in protest and be respectful at the gymnasts (applaud and cheer for them afterwards) at the same time.
Of course they did nothing wrong.
But the ones who do wrong things should not think that they can fool the crowd.
@*Kalinka*: I didn't say that we should tolerate every wrong behaviour by the audience, it's an exaggeration. I said that the crowd has the right to voice their discontent if they see obviously very wrong things. I respect your opinion and your fairness. But I stay by my opinion that if the crowd smells something very ugly, they have every right for a "call to arms". _________________ "Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils." |
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Erik
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 179 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun, 22-Dec-2013 22:53 Post subject: Rhythmics will not be destroyed |
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“There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice,
but there must never be a time when we fail to protest.”
― Elie Wiesel
"every time we witness an injustice and do not act,
we train our character to be passive in it's presence
and thereby lose eventually all ability
to defend ourselves and those we love"
- Julian Assange
"Rhythmics will not be destroyed by those who do evil,
but by those who watch them without doing anything"
- me _________________ Photo made by my friend Barny Thierolf |
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Gergely
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 2260 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Thu, 9-Jan-2014 10:16 Post subject: |
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The case's final trial is at the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS):
"Six members of the Rhythmic Gymnastics Technical Committee of the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) have exercised their right to lodge an appeal with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Lausanne (SUI).
This follows the imposition of sanctions by the FIG’s Disciplinary Commission on July 09, 2013, and the subsequent rejection of their appeal by the FIG Appeal Tribunal on December 12, 2013 in the first instance.
The sanctions were imposed in response to irregularities that were found to have taken place during the intercontinental Rhythmic Gymnastics judges' course in Bucharest (ROU), on November 19-24, 2012, and the international judges' courses, which were held in Moscow (RUS) on November 28 to December 2, 2012 and Alicante (ESP) on December 5-9, 2012."
The rules are: if the CAS throws out the appeal, it's over, you can't appeal to anyone else as CAS is the highest legal authority in sports.
If CAS grants the appeal, the sanctions for the TC members are over, furthermore the cancelled results of the three courses can be valid. CAS can of course decide on accepting half of the appeal (e. g. the sanctions of the TC members are revoked but the sanctions on the courses are upheld).
Some RG related cases of CAS from the archives:
Irina Deriugina vs. FIG (ban because of judging irregularities) - ban partially upheld
T. (Irina Tchachina) vs. FIG (ban because of doping, furosemid usage) - appeal dismissed
Irina Deleanu vs. FIG (ban because of public comments on Trikomiti and the Cyprus Gymnastics Federation, suggesting cheating at the Olympic qualification event before London): the ban of the FIG Appeal Tribunal is upheld _________________ "Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils." |
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butterflyRG
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Posts: 296
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Posted: Thu, 9-Jan-2014 20:16 Post subject: |
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I hope more details would come out now the case is in court! Circumstancial evidence is far from fact, which will be in favor to appeal side. My guess without knowing any more is that only partial ban would hold. Past TC members should be eligible to function as superior judges in 2014 for instance, but judge test results could still be uphold. I think this is probably expected by the parties who appeal... |
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