Contents Information Events and Results Gymnasts Archive
Contents Archive Archive

Message board

Welcome to the new RSG.net message board! Please behave!
Please remember, that the message board is not responsible for the opinions expressed by its members.
Also don't insult, blame, accuse, discriminate, or debase other people here.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

2016 Espoo World Cup (Feb. 26-28)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rhythmic Gymnastics Forum Index » Events & Results
View previous topic | View next topic  
Author Message
Justin



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 998
Location: NED

PostPosted: Sun, 28-Feb-2016 21:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

maksymehappy wrote:
I've never seen anyone so peevish with the gymnastics community before. Why visit the live chat for anything useful or sensible?? Ask a monkey, get peanuts and banana skins. These people cannot be reading and typing while fully following routines. Maybe these people have a transparent overlay of text on the video like a HUD because I do not see how they can manage it. Maybe one has to be under 21 to understand this.


Ha ha golden indeed!! Mr. Green. Moreover, tchachinafan put it exactly as how I perceived it as well. Heck, I think I should create a major on Uni on the psychology of gymnastics fans in particular. It would be really hard to pass , as it still amazes me some people out there can't look at things from multiple perspectives. But oh well, maybe if you are U21 it might be easier yep...

For some reason it scares me it is not that uncommon any more to judge gymnasts (prematurely) on their representation and their rank, regardless of their performance. As I said to Gergely, indeed, I have never seen so many mean comments towards Son. Yes, she's not as innovative and sparkly as some other contenders, but she did manage to nail her routine whereas others made some obvious errors.

It bothers me indeed one doesn't look at the elements that are performed (phenomenally) flawlessly, and I know everyone has one or two favourite gymnasts they'd like to see win a medal, but let's face it: in an artistic and aesthetic sport, where the results are based on a set of criteria, it's hard to satisfy everyone at the same time. It is inherently anyway, and it takes a lot of skills, intelligence AND precision to master all of these. A gymnast fares much better in maybe one or two aspects compared to the other, and it's their job to keep up and improve their level. Yes, I'm also not a huge fan of Yana K, but she knows how to play the game. I can only admire and respect her attitude and sportsmanship on the field of play.

The gymnasts and groups themselves know they aren't doing the sport solely to win medals, but to find an enjoyable environment where they can loose themselves in the emotions and performances as their heart desires. Rhythmic is supposed to be a sport where you can express your emotion and your movements in a competitive way. The sheer beauty and determination to go on, and the way how gymnasts and groups portray the most difficult combinations to make it look easy makes it appealing, regardless of the final outcome.

Just to name one occasion, remember when CHN won silver in Beijing 2008 how blatantly the entire community was flaming? Sure we expected something else, but that's only because we are so obsessed in determining who should win or should not win a medal (I'm as much as guilty as any other!!), while we should praise and welcome the global universality of the sport. Unexpected events such as these are making it a whole lot interesting in my opinion.

Even when countries without a strong RG tradition are in the spotlight, we tend to burn gymnasts to the ground if they are affiliated with a powerhouse we don't really like. But supposedly if you have the resources and the possibilities to train with the worlds finest gymnasts, wouldn't you do the same? Isn't it neat the level of gymnastics in countries as ISR and AZE, once relatively weak countries in the mid nineties, are now among the best?

Let's be realistic and even the majority of all gymnasts out there know obtaining a medal at world class level is something unattainable. Isn't that what we are all looking for: to see memorable and stunning routines. I mean, even some (sub) top gymnasts acknowledge winning a medal is considered a nice plus/bonus. Yes, it's a feel good moment, and for some it's some extra recognition on top of the recognition they should already get, from the first to the last ranked gymnast/group. So why should we fans make a big deal about this, if the majority of the athletes do not bother too much about it?

If so, don't hate the player, hate the game, for all I care Wink.
_________________
Gimme the ball, gimme the ball...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
viddy



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: Canada :D

PostPosted: Sun, 28-Feb-2016 23:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the blatant favouritism is a perfect example of why RG is becoming less of a sport. If scores were regularly meted out according to the COP then a large portion of RG followers wouldn't be so quick to fight over who "SHOULD" win based on their feelings, emotions, and opinions. If the COP was more iron clad in the artistry department and consistently demanding unbiased judging then there would be less fans bickering on the sidelines over who should win. The cleanest gymnasts with the riskiest elements and risks should win on that day.

I'm not sure when you are referring to when people were supporting Bessonova but I know for quite some time we were fighting for her because Kabaeva was competing disastrous routines and still winning. Yes, we fought for her then. We also fought for her when Sessina and Kapronova were sloppy and still won. When Bessonova dropped or fell out of elements then we didn't fight for her. It was as simple as that.

Lastly, fans need to be realistic and understand the amount of hours it takes for gymnasts to successfully perform their routines. I agree that there are a lot of boring routines... but that's the coach's decision to produce gymnasts who are solidly performing every single time. I'm assuming this is what Son's coach prefers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mentola83



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 0:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tchachinafan wrote:
[

Someone even complained about Son not using asian music, and that she should do it, because gymnasts like Deng did it and she's also Asian, like WTF!!!??

The general consensus of Moscow's GP and Espoo was that Son should not get a medal no matter what she does but its OK if Mamun/Soldatova/Rizatdinova get them even if they have made mistakes, because.

I think its unfortunate that now many people is going to start watching her routines with automated prejudices, failing to see what she does right.


It was me who wrote that Son should use her culture in her own routines. It was not a complain just a suggestion, I hope you know the difference. Deng was the perfect example, because she was like a fresh air compared to all the asian gymnasts right now who look more like russian matrioshki and have 0 personality and style.
Why there is hate you wonder?!!!
Son is mediocre gymnast, very limited in her body difficulty and in apparatus handling,her leaps are low, her throws are middle high and her entire routines are too secure. There is no improvement, just the same old routines with the same old different boring music.
The other thing we saw in this competition is that Soldatova gets a bonus every time she does a mistake. She looks like a drunken super model rushing through the routine struggling to hold the balance or not to tangle in her own ribbon just to receive 18.400 in the end.
I don't hate the gymnasts but I do hate how incredibly boosted their scores are. In the end they're the one who benefit from this injustice while other gymnasts like Rizatdinova suffer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergely



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 2260
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 9:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to say that if Son is a mediocre gymnast, quite many international level gymnasts wish to be that mediocre Mr. Green

(even if I agree that she's playing it too safe)
_________________
"Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Gergely



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 2260
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 10:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

viddy wrote:
I think the blatant favouritism is a perfect example of why RG is becoming less of a sport. If scores were regularly meted out according to the COP then a large portion of RG followers wouldn't be so quick to fight over who "SHOULD" win based on their feelings, emotions, and opinions. If the COP was more iron clad in the artistry department and consistently demanding unbiased judging then there would be less fans bickering on the sidelines over who should win. The cleanest gymnasts with the riskiest elements and risks should win on that day.

I'm not sure when you are referring to when people were supporting Bessonova but I know for quite some time we were fighting for her because Kabaeva was competing disastrous routines and still winning. Yes, we fought for her then. We also fought for her when Sessina and Kapronova were sloppy and still won. When Bessonova dropped or fell out of elements then we didn't fight for her. It was as simple as that.

Lastly, fans need to be realistic and understand the amount of hours it takes for gymnasts to successfully perform their routines. I agree that there are a lot of boring routines... but that's the coach's decision to produce gymnasts who are solidly performing every single time. I'm assuming this is what Son's coach prefers.


I'd disagree with the first sentence, RG is becoming more of a sport - the favoritism/inherent judging and lobbying problems were always present (that's unchanged, whether Bulgaria, USSR, Ukraine, Russia or anyone else is top dog), I'd say even more than nowadays.

With Bessonova I think there was a tendency indeed that she's the shining white champion who can do no wrong. If she does wrong, see first sentence, she can do no wrong Mr. Green Still, her win in Patras is probably THE moment of justice.

Anyway.

I think it's in the nature of the sport that defines the fan reactions. It's an artistic sport. It evokes emotions. It also has an unreachable target - perfection - and we measure the gymnasts against the unreachable target. It's probably natural that there is a mix-up between the emotions felt for the gymnasts and the way of reacting to the scores (especially when our liking for the gymnast does not correlate with the score).
_________________
"Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Gergely



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 2260
Location: Budapest, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 10:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentola83 wrote:
Tchachinafan wrote:
[

Someone even complained about Son not using asian music, and that she should do it, because gymnasts like Deng did it and she's also Asian, like WTF!!!??

The general consensus of Moscow's GP and Espoo was that Son should not get a medal no matter what she does but its OK if Mamun/Soldatova/Rizatdinova get them even if they have made mistakes, because.

I think its unfortunate that now many people is going to start watching her routines with automated prejudices, failing to see what she does right.


It was me who wrote that Son should use her culture in her own routines. It was not a complain just a suggestion, I hope you know the difference. Deng was the perfect example, because she was like a fresh air compared to all the asian gymnasts right now who look more like russian matrioshki and have 0 personality and style.
Why there is hate you wonder?!!!
Son is mediocre gymnast, very limited in her body difficulty and in apparatus handling,her leaps are low, her throws are middle high and her entire routines are too secure. There is no improvement, just the same old routines with the same old different boring music.
The other thing we saw in this competition is that Soldatova gets a bonus every time she does a mistake. She looks like a drunken super model rushing through the routine struggling to hold the balance or not to tangle in her own ribbon just to receive 18.400 in the end.
I don't hate the gymnasts but I do hate how incredibly boosted their scores are. In the end they're the one who benefit from this injustice while other gymnasts like Rizatdinova suffer.


I think how you phrase the criticism of Son is exactly showing what Tchachinafan wrote. It's a mix of technical things that might or might not be valid and strong subjective sentiments.

I mean, the same sentences could be easily altered for any gymnasts. Just change the name and the flaws of the gymnasts and you get it. Kudry. Mamun. Rizatdinova. Durunda. Filiou. Whoever. All have their weaknesses and you can easily point them out, throw in some strong words, and there you go.

I don't say it's not a valid opinion, I say it's a line of reasoning that personally does not appeal to me.

But it's all preference, of course.
_________________
"Time is a great teacher; unfortunately it kills all its pupils."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Tchachinafan



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 2224
Location: Stars Hollow, Connecticut

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 12:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergely wrote:


I think how you phrase the criticism of Son is exactly showing what Tchachinafan wrote. It's a mix of technical things that might or might not be valid and strong subjective sentiments.

I mean, the same sentences could be easily altered for any gymnasts. Just change the name and the flaws of the gymnasts and you get it. Kudry. Mamun. Rizatdinova. Durunda. Filiou. Whoever. All have their weaknesses and you can easily point them out, throw in some strong words, and there you go.

I don't say it's not a valid opinion, I say it's a line of reasoning that personally does not appeal to me.

But it's all preference, of course.


Exactly.


@ Viddy, I was referring to the post Kabaeva-Kapranova period. When Kanaeva came along, it was easy to see the shift of opinions, in 2007 general consensus was Kanaeva to be Russia's main gymnasts, as soon a that happened and when it became evident she was going to crush Bessonova left an right, PPl were not liking it anymore and started to pick on Kanaeva's faults, I always felt it became a "Bess should win bcz she is the QUEEN of expression" thing and getting that gold is her right because of it.


A side thought: People complained about Averinas getting low scores in both Moscow and Espoo (for Russians standars anyways) watch those complaints becoming "OVERSCORED" complaints as soon as they become Russias #1 and #2 Rolling Eyes

I think we have always had this kind of things, and I'm a guilty as charged of it too, but I do feel it has gotten much much worst
_________________
♥Staniouta, Halkina, Kudryavtseva, Pazhava ♥
No more dreaming like a girl so in love with the wrong world


Last edited by Tchachinafan on Mon, 29-Feb-2016 12:44; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tchachinafan



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 2224
Location: Stars Hollow, Connecticut

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 12:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentola83 wrote:

It was me who wrote that Son should use her culture in her own routines. It was not a complain just a suggestion, I hope you know the difference. Deng was the perfect example, because she was like a fresh air compared to all the asian gymnasts right now who look more like russian matrioshki and have 0 personality and style.
Why there is hate you wonder?!!!
Son is mediocre gymnast, very limited in her body difficulty and in apparatus handling,her leaps are low, her throws are middle high and her entire routines are too secure. There is no improvement, just the same old routines with the same old different boring music.
The other thing we saw in this competition is that Soldatova gets a bonus every time she does a mistake. She looks like a drunken super model rushing through the routine struggling to hold the balance or not to tangle in her own ribbon just to receive 18.400 in the end.
I don't hate the gymnasts but I do hate how incredibly boosted their scores are. In the end they're the one who benefit from this injustice while other gymnasts like Rizatdinova suffer.


Its hard for me to tell the difference when the comment includes things as "should" Wink


Son is not to use Asian music if she doesn't wants to just because she is Asian, gymnasts have to like the music theyre performing with otherwise whats the point?. In my opinion, what Son does suits her, and she performs well. Thats a subjective subject Laughing though.

I actually never wondered why there is hate but ok. Since I actually don't see Son being a mediocre gymnast, I decided to compare Son's "mediocrity" to her peers.

I tried to grab a good screenshots, I have always found them arbitrary but being arbitrary here is merited. The angles are slightly different but we can get a valid idea of the height:


sube


sube imagenes


imagen
_________________
♥Staniouta, Halkina, Kudryavtseva, Pazhava ♥
No more dreaming like a girl so in love with the wrong world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mentola83



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 15:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tchachinafan thank you for the reply and for the effort to find specially selected pictures to support your opinion. However i prefer to trust my own eyes when I am watching these videos. On 0.5 speed is more than enough to see everything, every little mistake or imperfection,the high and how long they keep the shape. I can also find you some bad leaps or screenshot her ugly panschee pivot,but it will be pointless. If you could pick the worse leaps from these pictures, which one would you chose? Even in your "perfect" selection I'll exclude Son. She could never jump as good as Soldatova , her leaps just won't be spectacular.
And when I see some hammer scores for Soldatova then at least she has this amazing body skills, and Son has .......... ....hmmmmm .. help me here there must be at least one special thing about her.
About the high of the trows I can agree with you, probably she is too coordinated and make it look too easy and secure.Whatever I am so not excited Confused
maybe that's it she is well coordinated short gymnast with a smile Very Happy .
Now I get it thank you so much Tchachinafan !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mentola83



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 15:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

viddy wrote:
I think the blatant favouritism is a perfect example of why RG is becoming less of a sport. If scores were regularly meted out according to the COP then a large portion of RG followers wouldn't be so quick to fight over who "SHOULD" win based on their feelings, emotions, and opinions. If the COP was more iron clad in the artistry department and consistently demanding unbiased judging then there would be less fans bickering on the sidelines over who should win. The cleanest gymnasts with the riskiest elements and risks should win on that day.

I'm not sure when you are referring to when people were supporting Bessonova but I know for quite some time we were fighting for her because Kabaeva was competing disastrous routines and still winning. Yes, we fought for her then. We also fought for her when Sessina and Kapronova were sloppy and still won. When Bessonova dropped or fell out of elements then we didn't fight for her. It was as simple as that.

Lastly, fans need to be realistic and understand the amount of hours it takes for gymnasts to successfully perform their routines. I agree that there are a lot of boring routines... but that's the coach's decision to produce gymnasts who are solidly performing every single time. I'm assuming this is what Son's coach prefers.


They change the rules all they time, but one thing remains certain, the final score is closed. Open scores and solid judging would minimize the speculations and blatant favouritism.However some ppl like it this way, because only like this they can have the control.
And we didn't fight for Bessonova because she could never win with huge error a gold. For Kapranova this was common practice, and ppl usually start to talk bad if something fake becomes a model.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tchachinafan



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 2224
Location: Stars Hollow, Connecticut

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 16:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentola83 wrote:
Tchachinafan thank you for the reply and for the effort to find specially selected pictures to support your opinion. However i prefer to trust my own eyes when I am watching these videos. On 0.5 speed is more than enough to see everything, every little mistake or imperfection,the high and how long they keep the shape. I can also find you some bad leaps or screenshot her ugly panschee pivot,but it will be pointless. If you could pick the worse leaps from these pictures, which one would you chose? Even in your "perfect" selection I'll exclude Son. She could never jump as good as Soldatova , her leaps just won't be spectacular.
And when I see some hammer scores for Soldatova then at least she has this amazing body skills, and Son has .......... ....hmmmmm .. help me here there must be at least one special thing about her.
About the high of the trows I can agree with you, probably she is too coordinated and make it look too easy and secure.Whatever I am so not excited Confused
maybe that's it she is well coordinated short gymnast with a smile Very Happy .
Now I get it thank you so much Tchachinafan !


uhm, How am I supporting my opinion tho??

I'm comparing height
_________________
♥Staniouta, Halkina, Kudryavtseva, Pazhava ♥
No more dreaming like a girl so in love with the wrong world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mentola83



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 16:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tchachinafan wrote:
mentola83 wrote:
Tchachinafan thank you for the reply and for the effort to find specially selected pictures to support your opinion. However i prefer to trust my own eyes when I am watching these videos. On 0.5 speed is more than enough to see everything, every little mistake or imperfection,the high and how long they keep the shape. I can also find you some bad leaps or screenshot her ugly panschee pivot,but it will be pointless. If you could pick the worse leaps from these pictures, which one would you chose? Even in your "perfect" selection I'll exclude Son. She could never jump as good as Soldatova , her leaps just won't be spectacular.
And when I see some hammer scores for Soldatova then at least she has this amazing body skills, and Son has .......... ....hmmmmm .. help me here there must be at least one special thing about her.
About the high of the trows I can agree with you, probably she is too coordinated and make it look too easy and secure.Whatever I am so not excited Confused
maybe that's it she is well coordinated short gymnast with a smile Very Happy .
Now I get it thank you so much Tchachinafan !


uhm, How am I supporting my opinion tho??

I'm comparing height


Wha??? Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maksymehappy



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 504

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 16:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
Let's be realistic and even the majority of all gymnasts out there know obtaining a medal at world class level is something unattainable. Isn't that what we are all looking for: to see memorable and stunning routines. I mean, even some (sub) top gymnasts acknowledge winning a medal is considered a nice plus/bonus. Yes, it's a feel good moment, and for some it's some extra recognition on top of the recognition they should already get, from the first to the last ranked gymnast/group. So why should we fans make a big deal about this, if the majority of the athletes do not bother too much about it?

Don't want to spoil your love-in about this glamorous hobby but the gymnasts themselves know perfectly well the problem with RG, but do not necessarily feel safe to voice it in public. That is not the same as not caring. Do not assume a tired donkey does not care just because he cannot tell you so.

mentola83 wrote:

About the high of the trows I can agree with you, probably she is too coordinated and make it look too easy and secure.Whatever I am so not excited Confused
maybe that's it she is well coordinated short gymnast with a smile Very Happy

I tend to think of Son as the pink candyfloss of RG. Very sugary, you're not meant to live on it and you might feel embarrassed about it afterwards because people can see it on your face.

mentola83 wrote:
a drunken super model rushing through the routine struggling to hold the balance or not to tangle in her own ribbon just to receive 18.400 in the end

Don't ever stop coming up with such great quotes!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tchachinafan



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 2224
Location: Stars Hollow, Connecticut

PostPosted: Mon, 29-Feb-2016 16:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentola83 wrote:


Wha??? Shocked



yeah, allow me to quote myself Laughing

Tchachinafan wrote:


Son is not to use Asian music if she doesn't wants to just because she is Asian, gymnasts have to like the music theyre performing with otherwise whats the point?. In my opinion, what Son does suits her, and she performs well. Thats a subjective subject Laughing though.

I actually never wondered why there is hate but ok. Since I actually don't see Son being a mediocre gymnast, I decided to compare Son's "mediocrity" to her peers.

I tried to grab a good screenshots, I have always found them arbitrary but being arbitrary here is merited. The angles are slightly different but we can get a valid idea of the height:



I can't justify my opinion (first bolded part) 'cos its subjective and in the second bolded part I did said "arbitrary" and "height", so I don't think I made an effort to select special pics to try supporting my opinion. The height they/the apparatus reach is not an opinion. Or is it?
_________________
♥Staniouta, Halkina, Kudryavtseva, Pazhava ♥
No more dreaming like a girl so in love with the wrong world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hoops and Grand Fouettes



Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 1847
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue, 1-Mar-2016 4:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korean Coverage: http://home.jtbc.joins.com/Vod/VodView.aspx?epis_id=EP10027390
_________________
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/MarchingBalletDancer
My Tumblr: http://czarinakanaeva.tumblr.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rhythmic Gymnastics Forum Index » Events & Results All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Contents | Information | Events and Results | Gymnasts | Archive

last Modified: 25. October 2003

Copyright © 1996-2004 Alexander Kochanntrilobit GmbH
trilobit